[split] Quality vs Quanity - the state of expansion art

[Chaos]

(03-29-2015 05:33 AM)Aerial-Rave Wrote:  First off, the fact that you seem to be getting a bit worked up over a simple jab at a small trait/tendency you have is laughable within itself. I was just teasing you man, you of all people I would expect to realize how weak it was.

Because what you call "jokes" are just insufferable blither when we should be having a serious conversation.

(03-29-2015 05:33 AM)Aerial-Rave Wrote:  Second, don't act like you or anyone on chans boards truly have a grasp on what is 'quality' when it comes to art. Because like I said, it is subjective at most and the fact that people do come back to these people does show their style is somewhat appealing. This community is shallow as hell and would ignore anyone on the tiniest thing.

It's one thing when you're just drawing pictures to entertain yourself, it's a whole nother thing to draw disproportionate wrongly shaped monstrosities and think it's good on just its merits of being a drawing of a fat character for an area that's about visually appealing pictures. There is a reason you don't see weird proportions and styles outside of a museum while tv, comics, and games stick to making them aesthetically appealing except for anything heavily focused on comedy, almost every single active artist isn't trying to make something funny, they didn't go into this thinking they're gonna make a lot of artsy stuff, they went in planning on making fetish fuel for people to wank off to and if they can't make something pleasing to the eyes by getting a better handle on their skills, they shouldn't be called anything beyond shit and should fuck off. You can call whatever festering piece of shit you find on DA art, but in no amount of the word is it good fetish art.

(03-29-2015 05:33 AM)Aerial-Rave Wrote:  If anything, critics like you, especially people like you Chaos, don't even have a standard in what they like and just like to bitch because that's all you can do. If you truly wanted better art, you'd do it your damn self instead of sitting on your imaginary throne of superiority like anything you made would have been immortalized in the annuls of time. If anything, what I love about you and people like you, is that you will praise this imaginary standard of 'fetish perfect' and compare the vague concept of your non-existent masterpiece and say that no artist, no matter what they do, they will never reach this standard.

Every god damn time....
This idiotic argument can easily be rebutted by just saying that's what paying artists is for but there's so few good and they're all proficient only in one body part while being cutesy or close to realistic. Not everybody has the patience or time so they do the only thing they can do, spend money on it but it's entirely way too hard to come by anyone with the right combo.

For me it's a case of my own art it's a disinterest, the fact I've grown disenchanted from this community. The most I've done in a long while has been random drawing, posting random plot ideas, and one bout of stupid shit filled with using a characters name over and over as a reference to their weight. I never put myself on a fucking pedestal, I look at my work like I look at anyone else, everyone seems to think I see myself better for some reason. I mean, cept for you, Buttfucker, and Bonerhoe.

(03-29-2015 05:33 AM)Aerial-Rave Wrote:  Now, I am all for criticism and will argue some people take it too personally. But at a point, 'Git Gud' without telling the person how to do so is straight up harmful and a waste of time. It is half the reason these artists are stagnant and closing their doors because you keep pushing this imaginary standard. For me, as long as you are not like Butlova tier or something that resembles a five year old's refrigerator drawing, then I pretty much have no trouble with the way they draw. Heck, I will admit my taste in styles is broad and may not be liked by other but shit, I can't just as easily not like your tastes.

Then fucking tell them what's wrong.
...You do realize I haven't shat on anyone on DA in years?
http://debulover.deviantart.com/gallery/
http://robot001.deviantart.com/gallery/
Same tier if not lower
That's because my taste is platinum compared to yours, even with the few scuffs here and there.

(03-29-2015 05:33 AM)Aerial-Rave Wrote:  Another thing is you are confusing defending support with defending. Of all the artists you listed, I support them in the hopes of them improving. Does Owl always produce quality WG work? No, he tends to do more hourglass, a shape I am personally not fond of, but of all his monster and male commissions he has done for me, those are some of my favorites. I really don't mind that the dude isn't perfect but he does practice sketches and does it anytime he can.

You do realize a chunk of that list has been in this community almost if not longer than me, they're never going to change and shouldn't get any kind of support just for that simple fact. Owl does near shit level fats but I am interested in what will become of him with how much money he's charging to make a living out of it, will he get good or will he end up phoning it in.

(03-29-2015 05:33 AM)Aerial-Rave Wrote:  People fucking up and being louder than others (including me for your argument's sake) is again you confusing support with defending. Again with Owlizard, I started to be more specific with what I ask him in terms of commissions as I noticed a lot of artists do interpret body types of the picture references I give them differently. But at the same time, I also give him some room to do what he feels best because I'm not a nitpicking asshole who believes in absolute perfection. Some people can and will make mistakes, including me.

And yes, I make A LOT of typos in my writing but since have shown people my stuff before I post it and even they can miss stuff. I really think you have a problem putting everything to a perfect standard that doesn't exist.

There's a difference with you though, you have spell checker, a dictionary in your mind and the ability to proof read slowly. I may be too harsh on artists but a writer that can't be damned to use any of that shouldn't be writing until they learn how to.

(03-29-2015 05:33 AM)Aerial-Rave Wrote:  But the main thing I want to touch on in your argument is that you say there is one artist that fits your criteria for good. Now let's say that's the standard you want everyone else to have. What if someone like me or even TAD hates that person's style and considers it flawed. Then what? Your gold standard is debunked due to subjective eyes because not everyone thinks/sees the same thing.

The things I'd do to you would make Cenobites cringe.

(03-29-2015 05:33 AM)Aerial-Rave Wrote:  Now the people I 'praise.' I'd do a complete list of why I like these artists and what they can improve, but you'd just dismiss it because it doens't fit your fake gold standard. But what I can say about these people (Even Robot001) is that they have the courage to actually put their shit out there to be publicly criticized. Now, does this mean they are immune from being told that they are bad? No, there are plenty of shit I hate that people love and I wouldn't be anymore of a jackass than you are for trying to make everyone agree to my standard and isolate people's works that I don't like.

And what has having no standards gotten us? An all time low of top tier artists from them all leaving or going cash shop leaving the still huge number of crap artists and people who have been mediocre for years at best, the only saving grace is sudden surge of people who start out good.

(03-29-2015 05:33 AM)Aerial-Rave Wrote:  You seem to forget that the community IS big enough to house a variety of tastes, styles and subjects. The problem with the WG community is that people like you and TAD try to minimize the choice, either through exclusivity or just driving out things that you don't like. What you two jackasses seem to forget, is the fact that simply ignoring this shit will have a better chance of it dying out. If it gets to the higher calibers and is criticized by the public and doesn't fit the majority standard rather than those of the minority, then it will die out, simple as that. Riding the hate-boner s only going to make the damn abomination grow and separating yourself when you can stop it yourself is the best option.

Yes, but barely any with actual skill and most showing zero signs of desiring improvement. HAHAHAHHAH, TAD?! Since when has he done anything but coddle any fucker that would kiss his ass and defend shit artists like how you've been doing? You seem to forget a large enough number are tasteless kids who just found their love for this stuff and will grab and praise any little thing they see of their favorite characters. With them, it'll never change. Now that I think about it, I've meet more than I'd like to have ever known of grown asses with the same habits as them.

(03-29-2015 05:33 AM)Aerial-Rave Wrote:  But who am I to disagree with master artist Chaos-Ace? I'm just a tasteless pleb who is the cowboybefat with OCs? I swear, every time I try to be decent with you, you turn into a blithering idiot who thinks his shit doesn't stink. You cry and whine and leave, only to come back because you really have no other place to go, nor other people who would read/listen/put up with your bullshit.

You can't be a Cowboybefat without repeatedly buying from the same artist while refusing to challenge them at least every now and then. And yet the only time I left, I got asked back. I haven't been posting here since it's been pretty dead. That just shows how little you know of the web.

(03-29-2015 05:33 AM)Aerial-Rave Wrote:  Face it Chaos, you like us and the artist on the west side. You have every right to want the art to improve, but people have to improve at their own pace and have lives outside this shit so they might not Git Gud as quickly as you want them to be.

TL;DR Get fucked boi.

I like Dae, Dope, Odin, Lizzy, Skipper, Kayana, and Wolf. I can enjoy Nemesis when he's not complaining about his life outside of the internet, only issues I have with Taff is when it comes to video games, and Neo when he's not being a hipster.

You, Alt, Madnezz, and Rakko can all go fuck yourselves.

But overall, everyone that was active for a while on the old site, I will always have a huge amount of resentment towards

---

[Aerial-Rave]

(03-29-2015 06:57 PM)Chaos Wrote:  Because what you call "jokes" are just insufferable blither when we should be having a serious conversation.

Dude, get over it. Just because you didn't like it doesn't mean you get to dismiss the chance at a serious conversation. It's the fact that you don't simply just ignore it, but actually call it out as a means to dismiss me is the reason I think you are butt hurt about it. It was a crappy jab at your taste, chill.

(03-29-2015 06:57 PM)Chaos Wrote:  It's one thing when you're just drawing pictures to entertain yourself, it's a whole nother thing to draw disproportionate wrongly shaped monstrosities and think it's good on just its merits of being a drawing of a fat character for an area that's about visually appealing pictures. There is a reason you don't see weird proportions and styles outside of a museum while tv, comics, and games stick to making them aesthetically appealing except for anything heavily focused on comedy, almost every single active artist isn't trying to make something funny, they didn't go into this thinking they're gonna make a lot of artsy stuff, they went in planning on making fetish fuel for people to wank off to and if they can't make something pleasing to the eyes by getting a better handle on their skills, they shouldn't be called anything beyond shit and should fuck off. You can call whatever festering piece of shit you find on DA art, but in no amount of the word is it good fetish art.

While I do agree a majority isn't really good, you can't really say you are the ultimate judge on what's good or not. Don't act like DA is the only cesspool of art that gets tons of views and what not. What we have to understand is that porn is porn and no one really has a standard to what they fap to. As much as I would like to critique and admire a fat of she piece while in a tuxedo, sipping wine as it hangs from my fireplace mantel, let's be real here. We are arguing over the anatomy and legitimacy of fictional fat female characters.

In my own illusions of grandeur, I do want to sort of have fat art sort of hit the main stream and be in movies, video games and cartoons and be treated as the norm, but I know doing it through porn is not really the best way to do it or if it is even going to happen.

What you have to realize is that everyone draws to a different degree and not everyone will suit your tastes. Not all your dreams and aspirations will me realized through other people no matter how much you yell at them.

(03-29-2015 06:57 PM)Chaos Wrote:  Every god damn time....
This idiotic argument can easily be rebutted by just saying that's what paying artists is for but there's so few good and they're all proficient only in one body part while being cutesy or close to realistic. Not everybody has the patience or time so they do the only thing they can do, spend money on it but it's entirely way too hard to come by anyone with the right combo.

For me it's a case of my own art it's a disinterest, the fact I've grown disenchanted from this community. The most I've done in a long while has been random drawing, posting random plot ideas, and one bout of stupid shit filled with using a characters name over and over as a reference to their weight. I never put myself on a fucking pedestal, I look at my work like I look at anyone else, everyone seems to think I see myself better for some reason. I mean, cept for you, Buttfucker, and Bonerhoe.

And every critic and defender of this even stupider rebuttal is just as eternal. It's a vicious cycle. You try to deflect the fact that you project your own short comings as a content creator on actual content creators. In truth, the artists/creators owe nothing to us as a community. They can pack up one day and tell us to fuck off and they would be completely in the right to do so.

I don't mind if someone tells an artist to do better, but realize not everyone likes being called shit for making mistakes that take time and practice to fix. People like you seem to be on this fantasy ride that telling a shit artist (which is subjective within itself) that to 'Git Gud' would magically make them not shit and in a small amount of time. Hell, even the ones that are considered good still get messages about how much people hate their style, they draw the same size/face and what have you.

Critique has gotten to be this passive aggressive shit slinging campaign that is just people too lazy/scared to put their necks out there and settle for just taking it out on others. Or even worse, subjective reviews of 'I don't like how they draw this' and claim it to be some pseudo intellectual fact of art.

If you want something done right, do your damn self. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink it. You get what I am saying, homie?

(03-29-2015 06:57 PM)Chaos Wrote:  Then fucking tell them what's wrong.
...You do realize I haven't shat on anyone on DA in years?
http://debulover.deviantart.com/gallery/
http://robot001.deviantart.com/gallery/
Same tier if not lower
That's because my taste is platinum compared to yours, even with the few scuffs here and there.

Here's the thing Chaos, most times when I get a commission, the artist gives me a WIP and I usually ask for a few changes. It's a thing called communication and actually talking to people, you know?

And I already know of Robot's and Debulover's cases. I talk to Debu more about other things than art. If anything, he has somehow gotten worse at his earlier stuff was pretty decent, can't say what happened there.

Yes, your tastes are platinum and mind bottom tier...yay? I have shit taste and I will own that, can we move on now?

(03-29-2015 06:57 PM)Chaos Wrote:  You do realize a chunk of that list has been in this community almost if not longer than me, they're never going to change and shouldn't get any kind of support just for that simple fact. Owl does near shit level fats but I am interested in what will become of him with how much money he's charging to make a living out of it, will he get good or will he end up phoning it in.

I already know that but you have to realize that people aren't perfect. They plateau, cookie cutter and just plain stay at a plain sometimes. Hell, all artists are like that at one point, they get at a comfortable position and draw similar figures...I think it's called a 'style.' It may not be up to your standard but again, they don't owe you shit and you don't owe them the time of day. You can suggest legit ways of getting better but if they aren't going to listen, at a certain point there is no use in wasting your breath and you can just wipe your hands clean of them. Just fucking walk away and stop trying to control people through your imaginary standard.

(03-29-2015 06:57 PM)Chaos Wrote:  There's a difference with you though, you have spell checker, a dictionary in your mind and the ability to proof read slowly. I may be too harsh on artists but a writer that can't be damned to use any of that shouldn't be writing until they learn how to.

You know, I took this suggestion seriously, but like you've said in recent times, you don't even read my latest stuff and hate it anyway so what's the point in pleasing you? It's a thing to critique and give advice but when you don't even check up to see if the person has gotten better (in drawing, it is must easier because you know, visual and all) what's the point of taking your consideration to heart? Hell, you don't even say anything about the subjects of my writing, just the spelling an easy fix.

I know I make a lot of spelling and grammar errors, so do other writers. Just a simple 'Hey you misspelled this' doesn't really hold too well as a critique alone to say one's writing is bad. Hell, there are even typos in books.

(03-29-2015 06:57 PM)Chaos Wrote:  

The things I'd do to you would make Cenobites cringe.

As if you'd know what to do if you had all this~

(03-29-2015 06:57 PM)Chaos Wrote:  And what has having no standards gotten us? An all time low of top tier artists from them all leaving or going cash shop leaving the still huge number of crap artists and people who have been mediocre for years at best, the only saving grace is sudden surge of people who start out good.

Top tier? Okay. Another factor that can be up to anyone's taste. I'm not saying you are wrong, but you have to realize that everyone interprets art differently and sure, not everything that is considered good is good in my eyes, but hey, it's popular, it's what people like. There's a thing called free will and people can lie and be manipulative to promote a crappy piece of work but not everyone is going to like it. Something being popular and something being good are two separate things.

Would I like more quality fat art? Sure, but I know it is most likely going to come from my own hand since I am not in everyone's head nor can I control their hands, especially not from a damn computer screen.

(03-29-2015 06:57 PM)Chaos Wrote:  Yes, but barely any with actual skill and most showing zero signs of desiring improvement. HAHAHAHHAH, TAD?! Since when has he done anything but coddle any fucker that would kiss his ass and defend shit artists like how you've been doing? You seem to forget a large enough number are tasteless kids who just found their love for this stuff and will grab and praise any little thing they see of their favorite characters. With them, it'll never change. Now that I think about it, I've meet more than I'd like to have ever known of grown asses with the same habits as them.

You honestly are no different. You aren't satisfied with anything as if the WG community actually owes you something. That is where the 'Holier than thou' from you comes from. You can ask for improvement from anyone and when it doesn't come the way you want, you whine and cry, blaming on the artists that they don't draw the way you want to. You are at liberty to call someone's art shit, but it doesn't make it necessarily true.

I can't stand some art styles like Bleedman, Jollyjack or styles similar to Genzomn or Wen-M. But you know what? I don't go out of my way to tell them or consider them shit because I don't owe them shit and they owe nothing to me. It may be different in your case since you are interested in WG art because you have some personal interest in seeing good fat of she, but if it ain't coming, it ain't coming. The best solution is to create your own for yourself and stop trying to find entertainment and satisfaction from others and have it fit your specific tastes/preferences.

(03-29-2015 06:57 PM)Chaos Wrote:  You can't be a Cowboybefat without repeatedly buying from the same artist while refusing to challenge them at least every now and then. And yet the only time I left, I got asked back. I haven't been posting here since it's been pretty dead. That just shows how little you know of the web.

You left at least twice and both was because you felt people weren't listening to you and were doing their own thing which you considered stupid. Trust me, I know more than I let on.

(03-29-2015 06:57 PM)Chaos Wrote:  I like Dae, Dope, Odin, Lizzy, Skipper, Kayana, and Wolf. I can enjoy Nemesis when he's not complaining about his life outside of the internet, only issues I have with Taff is when it comes to video games, and Neo when he's not being a hipster.

You, Alt, Madnezz, and Rakko can all go fuck yourselves.

But overall, everyone that was active for a while on the old site, I will always have a huge amount of resentment towards

Honestly, I don't hate you. More so, you are pretty much this:



No one can make mistakes, no one can lag behind, perfection right out of the gate or GTFO. And the only thing in common I see with the people you hate, is that each of us has asked you to:

Of what you accomplished or what should we strive for when it comes to you putting your two cents on something. It's not to dismiss you but more, we want to know where you are coming from. Really, you only respond with more bouts of 'this is shit because I say so' which in itself speaks that you come from some moral critique higher ground painted gold which is actually 'Pulled out of my ass bullshit mountain.' In short, we critique your critique and you get butthurt.

You have this tendency to be harsh but with no true examples of what really satisfies you or a true reason as to why you hate it. You basically come off as a naysayer who doesn't want anyone to succeed because you can't. That might not be your case, but you exhibit all the symptoms of such a person. I think another thing is, we have different goals within the WG community.

While I want people to treat everyone better and more equally, you want more quality art. I'm not against your goals, but I think interaction between each other, not making fat art about business and competition but about a friendly space for people to share their odd kink with other strangers over the internet is just more important and CAN help with getting better art through other artist mentoring and sharing with one another without the wall of 'You must be this popular to talk to me' in the way.

[Chaos]

(03-29-2015 10:46 PM)Aerial-Rave Wrote:  

(03-29-2015 06:57 PM)Chaos Wrote:  You can't be a Cowboybefat without repeatedly buying from the same artist while refusing to challenge them at least every now and then. And yet the only time I left, I got asked back. I haven't been posting here since it's been pretty dead. That just shows how little you know of the web.

You left at least twice and both was because you felt people weren't listening to you and were doing their own thing which you considered stupid. Trust me, I know more than I let on.

Wait, when was this second time I left and how was my leaving because of a highly volatile situation where both sides were really getting on each others nerves "because you felt people weren't listening to you and were doing their own thing"?

[kawaiiChiimera]

It doesn't help that people are being downright toxic to eachother.

[Aerial-Rave]

(03-30-2015 11:27 AM)Chaos Wrote:  

(03-29-2015 10:46 PM)Aerial-Rave Wrote:  

(03-29-2015 06:57 PM)Chaos Wrote:  You can't be a Cowboybefat without repeatedly buying from the same artist while refusing to challenge them at least every now and then. And yet the only time I left, I got asked back. I haven't been posting here since it's been pretty dead. That just shows how little you know of the web.

You left at least twice and both was because you felt people weren't listening to you and were doing their own thing which you considered stupid. Trust me, I know more than I let on.

Wait, when was this second time I left and how was my leaving because of a highly volatile situation where both sides were really getting on each others nerves "because you felt people weren't listening to you and were doing their own thing"?

I remember the first you left was around the time we were planning on doing something to get the site more attention. People like you and Apelord suggested we couldn't do it for various reasons, gave vague explanations as to why (Such as simply not liking the designs of the mascots, cast, story and what not and provided next to no solutions for it. ) I remember specifically you not taking too well to the fact that you suggested we do more fan-art type stuff with stories and pictures to first attract people and a lot of us (more than likely me as well) told you no, original shit only and you responded with no one would care about our own original content.

Though true, it was felt we had higher aspirations for our own creations and it got to our heads and basically told you to fuck off and that it was going to work.

The second time was more due to that time we completely lost the forum due to something on Odin's end and I believe you stuck to the IRC.

If I am wrong in anything of these things, feel free to correct me.

[Rakko]

It makes me laugh when people bitch about artists expecting to get paid for their work. As if somehow the community is owed free art because they want it. DA was a website designed for artists to share their personal works, to find inspiration and constructive criticism between one another, and to grow as artists. It was never designed to be, nor will it ever be, your free fap image farm. Pay for your porn like a normal member of society, or pirate it like an asshole. Either way, quit your bitching. As it turns out, the internet didn't in fact make everything free. Porn costs money, it always has.

That being said, on the flipside, these artists have no idea how to charge for what they're selling. Supply and demand seems a foreign subject to them. Go to any retailer and find me a comic that's charging 10 dollars for 5 images, let alone 5 pages. You can't, it doesn't exist, because art isn't worth that much on retail.

Commissions cost more because they're custom work, custom work is inherently more time consuming because it involves catering to a single individual or group of individual's needs, the required back and forth, and research/repetition to get exactly what the client wants out of it. With these art packs, they're just drawing whatever they want, that involves considerably less work.

Does that mean you have a right to bitch about artists expecting money? No. If you don't wanna pay them, don't. There's ways to pirate it. They'll drop their prices in accordance if they need to. Supply and demand wins out in the end. Look at Jollyjack, he charges 3 bucks for 10+ page porn comics and manages to make a decent buck off of it, because its a reasonable price. Its simpler to just buy it from his website than it is to go track it down somewhere off a pirate site for most people. This is also how steam managed to carve itself out a decent niche. Easy accessibility and reasonable prices >>> Loads of effort in pirating. Simple economics.

These communities fell apart for the same reason most forum based communities fell apart. Web 2.0. Social media, dissemination of close knit groups into mass social landscapes, its the progression of things. Tribes become city states, city states become nations. Yearning for the old tribal lifestyle is nice, and quite frankly, I also miss it, but I'm not going to pretend its anything but the natural progression of mankind. It sucks, but that's how it goes.

As for toxicity, the internet was always toxic, it just seems moreso now because things exist on more of a mass scale than they did before. People have a tendency to be borderline-sociopathic assholes when consequences are removed. Look at half the posts on this thread, they're bathed in the kind of vitriol that would likely get you decked in the face in reality. But you don't have to be afraid of a fist on a computer monitor. People are people.

I'll keep drawing fat art for furries and making a decent cash flow out of it either way. Its funny, I don't see any of this bitching in the furry community at all. It really says all that need be said when I actually see furries being more reasonable than regular folks about something like this. I suggest you guys check your entitlement. We are artists, not livestock.

[Aerial-Rave]

I actually made a post on my Tumblr as to why I think art packs in their current state are shit. It seemed like a good idea but like you said Rakko, the prices don't match the quantity of the pics and I even made a reference to how DC and Marvel sell their comics for like 7 bucks an issue. Of course, I was met with some denial and excuses and even the fact that apparently artists who do art packs and Paetron won't be effected by the commissions they haven't done previously. (Basically, with the art packs and paetron, commission time won't be hindered which is bollocks considering artists have a tendency to not even finish personal projects and expect people to pay them to finish their personal shit.)

And no, all communities have their issues and just because the furry community doesn't have the art pack issue doesn't mean it is flawless. I swear, this furries vs human fat debate is as stupid as consoles wars. I always thought it was just light hazing in the name of some laughs but it seems people take this to heart...

And no, the internet hasn't always been 'toxic' but your mention of no consequences is sounds. People do talk more shit behind a computer screen and feel more power because of it. But at the same time, the internet is generally a place of no rules so you can have someone give you 100 bucks for no God damn reason or send you literal dog shit on your doorstep, it's a gamble. Most of the people that complain that their are being treated unfairly are just spoiled brats who can't use their advantages over the net thanks to the anonymity of the net.

Again, simply put, my main argument for the WG community is to stop treating art and each other like Gods/Celebrities we need to jump through hoops to talk to. Commissions need to be handled more professionally and with more communication between both parties as both have their faults when it comes to transactions and conveying what the customer wants. However, for some reason there is this social wall everyone must climb to even get some decency their way.

[Chaos]

(03-31-2015 01:22 AM)Aerial-Rave Wrote:  

(03-30-2015 11:27 AM)Chaos Wrote:  

(03-29-2015 10:46 PM)Aerial-Rave Wrote:  

(03-29-2015 06:57 PM)Chaos Wrote:  You can't be a Cowboybefat without repeatedly buying from the same artist while refusing to challenge them at least every now and then. And yet the only time I left, I got asked back. I haven't been posting here since it's been pretty dead. That just shows how little you know of the web.

You left at least twice and both was because you felt people weren't listening to you and were doing their own thing which you considered stupid. Trust me, I know more than I let on.

Wait, when was this second time I left and how was my leaving because of a highly volatile situation where both sides were really getting on each others nerves "because you felt people weren't listening to you and were doing their own thing"?

I remember the first you left was around the time we were planning on doing something to get the site more attention. People like you and Apelord suggested we couldn't do it for various reasons, gave vague explanations as to why (Such as simply not liking the designs of the mascots, cast, story and what not and provided next to no solutions for it. ) I remember specifically you not taking too well to the fact that you suggested we do more fan-art type stuff with stories and pictures to first attract people and a lot of us (more than likely me as well) told you no, original shit only and you responded with no one would care about our own original content.

Though true, it was felt we had higher aspirations for our own creations and it got to our heads and basically told you to fuck off and that it was going to work.

The second time was more due to that time we completely lost the forum due to something on Odin's end and I believe you stuck to the IRC.

If I am wrong in anything of these things, feel free to correct me.

1) That wasn't me permanently leaving, that was me going elsewhere til the shit blew over since I didn't care for any of it and the fact it was everywhere.
2)I said you guys weren't gonna finish that shit, you were all incapable of keeping a good steam going, and as I predicted, that shit fizzled out. Because no one would, just look at TV, whenever a new channel's made, they have a shit ton of old shows airing before filtering in their own stuff. I wasn't irritated because you guys were making a ton of OCs instead of copyright, I was irritated because you guys refused to believe that shit like that wouldn't work.
3) That other time is wrong, but I really did leave. Combination of Alt dick sucking and everyone not shutting up about repeatedly trying to get Shippo on even though he obviously didn't want to so I said something down the lines of "if he doesn't wanna join then fuck him, stop trying to force the guy" then everyone said "no fuck you" and since everyone was pissed over that shit, I decided to leave, then months later Odin asked me to come back.

As much as you guys say you wanna help the site, not one of you ever took me up on my offer of learning how to scrounge through Pixiv but nooooooooo, even though it'd be at most 4 mins of your time and that's likely me blowing the time out of proportion since it's balls easy to figure out cept for noticing little subtleties from seeing them over and over in different tags.

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(03-31-2015 03:27 AM)Rakko Wrote:  It makes me laugh when people bitch about artists expecting to get paid for their work. As if somehow the community is owed free art because they want it. DA was a website designed for artists to share their personal works, to find inspiration and constructive criticism between one another, and to grow as artists. It was never designed to be, nor will it ever be, your free fap image farm. Pay for your porn like a normal member of society, or pirate it like an asshole. Either way, quit your bitching. As it turns out, the internet didn't in fact make everything free. Porn costs money, it always has.

That being said, on the flipside, these artists have no idea how to charge for what they're selling. Supply and demand seems a foreign subject to them. Go to any retailer and find me a comic that's charging 10 dollars for 5 images, let alone 5 pages. You can't, it doesn't exist, because art isn't worth that much on retail.

Commissions cost more because they're custom work, custom work is inherently more time consuming because it involves catering to a single individual or group of individual's needs, the required back and forth, and research/repetition to get exactly what the client wants out of it. With these art packs, they're just drawing whatever they want, that involves considerably less work.

Does that mean you have a right to bitch about artists expecting money? No. If you don't wanna pay them, don't. There's ways to pirate it. They'll drop their prices in accordance if they need to. Supply and demand wins out in the end. Look at Jollyjack, he charges 3 bucks for 10+ page porn comics and manages to make a decent buck off of it, because its a reasonable price. Its simpler to just buy it from his website than it is to go track it down somewhere off a pirate site for most people. This is also how steam managed to carve itself out a decent niche. Easy accessibility and reasonable prices >>> Loads of effort in pirating. Simple economics.

These communities fell apart for the same reason most forum based communities fell apart. Web 2.0. Social media, dissemination of close knit groups into mass social landscapes, its the progression of things. Tribes become city states, city states become nations. Yearning for the old tribal lifestyle is nice, and quite frankly, I also miss it, but I'm not going to pretend its anything but the natural progression of mankind. It sucks, but that's how it goes.

As for toxicity, the internet was always toxic, it just seems moreso now because things exist on more of a mass scale than they did before. People have a tendency to be borderline-sociopathic assholes when consequences are removed. Look at half the posts on this thread, they're bathed in the kind of vitriol that would likely get you decked in the face in reality. But you don't have to be afraid of a fist on a computer monitor. People are people.

I'll keep drawing fat art for furries and making a decent cash flow out of it either way. Its funny, I don't see any of this bitching in the furry community at all. It really says all that need be said when I actually see furries being more reasonable than regular folks about something like this. I suggest you guys check your entitlement. We are artists, not livestock.

I agree with all that top part about there needing to be a better content to price ratio. I don't agree with the anti bitching part, as annoying as it may be, it still helps get out the word that the content may not be worth your money and with what is said, you can decide if you wanna go buy it yourself since there's no place to speak your mind about such things. I honestly can't think of anyone who even does a good grasp with it beyond Saxxon and maybe TrinitiyFate, never really saw his packs.

Fuck that entitlement bullshit, I heard that word entirely too much when I started reading all the Gamergate stuff and the repeated times on the expansion chans. If Axel and Serio hadn't poisoned the idea before everyone tried it themselves, there likely wouldn't be as much bitching about it and now mostly everyone else is helping support peoples opinions that this is a bad idea by having too little content in their packs, worse quality than everything in their gallery. They're your loyal customers not your piggy bank to bang every which way to get its money out.

For the most part people never had an issue with commissions and also from what I've seen, it's rare for furries to do art packs and when they do, it's rare for them to skimp on the content.

(03-31-2015 05:22 AM)Aerial-Rave Wrote:  I actually made a post on my Tumblr as to why I think art packs in their current state are shit. It seemed like a good idea but like you said Rakko, the prices don't match the quantity of the pics and I even made a reference to how DC and Marvel sell their comics for like 7 bucks an issue. Of course, I was met with some denial and excuses and even the fact that apparently artists who do art packs and Paetron won't be effected by the commissions they haven't done previously. (Basically, with the art packs and paetron, commission time won't be hindered which is bollocks considering artists have a tendency to not even finish personal projects and expect people to pay them to finish their personal shit.)

And no, all communities have their issues and just because the furry community doesn't have the art pack issue doesn't mean it is flawless. I swear, this furries vs human fat debate is as stupid as consoles wars. I always thought it was just light hazing in the name of some laughs but it seems people take this to heart...

And no, the internet hasn't always been 'toxic' but your mention of no consequences is sounds. People do talk more shit behind a computer screen and feel more power because of it. But at the same time, the internet is generally a place of no rules so you can have someone give you 100 bucks for no God damn reason or send you literal dog shit on your doorstep, it's a gamble. Most of the people that complain that their are being treated unfairly are just spoiled brats who can't use their advantages over the net thanks to the anonymity of the net.

Again, simply put, my main argument for the WG community is to stop treating art and each other like Gods/Celebrities we need to jump through hoops to talk to. Commissions need to be handled more professionally and with more communication between both parties as both have their faults when it comes to transactions and conveying what the customer wants. However, for some reason there is this social wall everyone must climb to even get some decency their way.

Big two sell their comics for $4-5 while vols cost 15-20, mangas seem to be around 10 bucks.

Oh shit, I just remembered, that first time I left was to show you that I'm not the root of your constant failures, I left so you wouldn't be able to blame it dying because of me.

Really? All I've ever seen is people being disgusted by furry since it isn't their thing and wanting it taken off the board.

[Aerial-Rave]

Okay so both(?) times were basically people telling you to fuck off. I don't think I was too active for the Shippo thing, I remember him being here but I guess all of it blew over my head or something.

In any case, yeah you were right about us not being able to get anything started and there's not much else to say about it.

[Aerial-Rave]

Another thing I want to bring up is consistency in artist. Now, the argument can be made that inconsistency is just a part of drawing, 'inspiration' and 'fatigue' are real things artist go through and sometimes even real life takes (and it should) priority.

However...wouldn't notifying your commissioners be an act of decency? Too many times, the issue of communication between artist and those who commission/request pictures from them comes up and is quickly shot down by shallow rebuttals. For lack of a better word, I feel some artists have goon squads and hug boxes that save them from the kick in the ass they need to handle their creed as seriously as they say they do. Along with being saved from criticisms, they are saved from responsibilities and the sting of loss that should make a person want to do better. Instead, they are spoiled by the E-fame and hivemind that makes them think they are untouchable and do no wrong, hence when one asks for a commission that the artist themselves said they would take, the commissioner might get ignored, their pic not the way they wanted with no evidence of a work in progress given to them and in the end, the commissioner is called ungrateful or a bad person despite the artist getting what they want (the money) and the commissioner dissatisfied and having to take the loss or even worse and sadly more common, the artist disappearing with the person's money.

But there is a flip side to this: abusive commissioners. We all know who they are, and what they do. From taking up multiple slots of an artist's queue, to asking for a dozen re-draws and secretly saving the 'mistakes' as a sort of free sequence while essentially paying for one picture, to not even being satisfied with the finished product or even a request. Requests within themselves, I will agree the artist has no full obligation and can dismiss them, but then that begs why open requests in the first place instead of maybe asking specific people like friends? But commissioners do have to exhibit from patience and control as well. They have to realize the artist is a person with limits and preferences. "Making them go out their comfort zone" isn't always a good thing as there are usually personal reasons artists don't draw certain subjects and there is always an artist willing to draw a subject another may not be inclined to.

Artists should also know their limits when it comes to commissions BEFOREHAND such as how much work load they can do, give an estimate in times when they will complete their commissions and so on. New limits can pop up at the artist's discretion but too many at once shows poor management and ethics on the artist's part.

The obvious ego issue that puts up 'You must be this popular to talk to me' is another concern. While the masses as a whole is dumb and it is wise to pick and choose who you associate with, it should be based on if you would get along with that person, not how popular they are. Too many times, I've seen new artists get swept up in a clique and seemingly unable to associate with others due to some unspoken rule. Rumors and such are spread that paint other artists in a bad light thanks to a previous and shallow grudge due to a small disagreement.